The documentary’s subject, country music artist Rob McNurlin, is a Kentuckian whose music carries influences of folk, gospel, and blues. The film is named for his 2000 album Cowboy Boot Heel, produced by John Carter Cash at his father Johnny Cash’s Cabin Studio.
Interview transcript has been edited for length and clarity.
Clay Wallace, WUKY
What inspired you to create this documentary?
Steven Middleton, Documentarian
I had known Rob when I was a college student twenty-plus years ago, and I had seen a social media post that I took as him retiring from music. I thought, well, this is a great opportunity. If he’d be open to a film about his life, this would be a great project.
Clay
So, he interpreted the post that you made as a retirement post. I’ve heard you refute that in a couple interviews?
Rob McNurlin, Musician
It’s funny because, apparently, I don’t know how to write a post. I even had one old girlfriend call thinking it was a suicide note.
But, basically, I was at a point where my father had passed away, my mother’s in a rest home, and they had actually been raising my great nephew. So I was helping care for him and I had my dad’s donkeys to take care of in the home place. I saw no way of being out on the road playing music. We live right outside of Ashland, which isn’t known as the music Mecca of the world, so it’s not like you can make a fortune playing around town.
I made a few snide comments like, “Well, I think I’ll just take all these CDs in here and burn them in a brush pile or something.” I wasn’t in a very good place, but I don’t think I ever meant it as retiring. But it was looking bleak, let’s put it that way.
Clay
Who are some of the people you got to speak with for this project?
Steven
It was a dream come true for me as a filmmaker and as a music fan. We interviewed Grammy Winners, Grand Ole Opry members, Country Music Hall of Famers, and Rock and Roll Hall of Famers.
We interviewed J.T. Cure, bass player for Chris Stapleton; Marty Stewart, Chris Scruggs, and Kenny Vaughan; Jorma Kaukonen and Jack Casady from Hot Tuna; and Michael Johnathon, local singer-songwriter, but also WoodSongs’ host and producer.
Clay
What was it like to see yourself through other people’s eyes?
Rob
It was surreal. Almost all of them talked about something that I had done for them, but my memory is that all those people were doing things for me.
Clay
How did you meet people with such a wide span of projects they’re involved in? You know, rock musicians, country musicians - can you talk a little bit about your history as a performing musical artist that took you to these different places?
Rob
I just ended up being friends with so many different people. I never tried to use them as a ladder to success or anything, and maybe that’s why our friendships worked. I didn’t try to ride their coattails.
I was a big fan of Ramblin’ Jack Elliott. He used to travel with Bob Dylan and Woody Guthrie. Through him, I was on the road, and he played with Jorma Kaukonen at the Fur Peace Ranch. Jack just happened to have a cold, so I got up and did part of his set.
Well, I ended up on the road with Jorma and Jack opening shows for them. Marty I originally met at Camden Park. Over the years, just crossing paths, we got to be friends. I’m the most blessed person in the world when it comes to friends.
Clay
You mentioned Woody Guthrie’s music. You’ve got a song, I Dreamed I Saw Woody Guthrie, which is about carrying a person forward through their music and the marks they’ve left on you. Who are some of the other influences and people you’re carrying forward in that way?
Rob
My parents had a great record collection, but out of that collection, what really hit me hard was Johnny Cash.
I was born in ’63, so I was already listening to these records. In ’69, Johnny Cash had a TV show. I knew there were two definites in the week: we were going to church Sunday morning, and we would watch the Johnny Cash TV show. So, that Christmas, I asked for a guitar. Johnny Cash was really what lit the fuse.
But, through Johnny Cash, you read through liner notes and you see Bob Dylan’s name, so I go listen to Bob Dylan, and I love that. And that’s how you find out about Woody Guthrie and then you hear Ramblin’ Jack Elliott. Luckily, I got to meet him, and we’re still friends.
Clay
You’ve made several documentaries, many of them about places and a few about figures. Were there ways that this one felt different to you creatively or personally?
Steven
Rob’s the most documented human I’ve ever met. He’s recorded with all of these people and had his own television show, so I knew going into it, if I was going to do a feature-length film, I was going to have a lot of B-roll.
For several weeks, I would go visit Rob in Ashland and we would just get another stack of tapes - VHS tapes, quarter-inch tapes, and Beta tapes. It was just amazing to see so much footage.
Clay
Rob, can you tell me a little bit more about your television show?
Rob
Growing up, I was a big fan of all those country music shows, but especially The Porter Wagoner Show. I already mentioned The Johnny Cash Show, but the Porter show was on the whole time I was growing up. I wanted a show like that so, through Richard Friley Productions, we managed to pull off a TV show. We just basically stole everything we could from The Porter Wagoner Show - from the corny jokes to the way we dressed and everything.
Clay
So, the Western wear, I associated it with Texas and the ranching south. But that’s so much of your persona, but you’re kind of rooted in this Eastern Kentucky area.
Rob
Well, even before I played music, I had a pair black suede baby cowboy boots that I started out in. Dad was always raising horses and mules, so we always dressed Western because of that. Then, when the music came along, there was just a given that I was going to keep dressing Western.
The first show that I played after moving to Nashville had Kenny Vaughan and Chris Scruggs from Marty Stewart's band, and Kayton Roberts from Hank Snow's band playing with me and JT. We were playing at Layla’s Bluegrass Inn and Lillie Mae - who plays fiddle sometimes for Jack White - her and her brothers and sisters was playing before us. I’d never met them, but she leans into the microphone and goes, “Now, we have one more song-“ and then she looks at the marquee, because she don’t know my name, “-Rob McNurlin and his band’s coming up next.” We’re all just standing against the wall, but we got our rhinestone suits on. She goes, “I don’t know what they sound like, but they look like they sound great.”
That was the coolest thing. I thought, we’re halfway there. We already look like we sound good.
Clay
[To Steven] Would you say that your own performing career as a musician influenced the way that you approached this project?
Steven
Oh, for sure. You know, if you ever watched The Last Waltz, the famous Martin Scorsese documentary on The Band’s final concert and you watched the commentary, Robbie Robertson says that filmmakers want to be musicians and musicians want to be filmmakers. It’s true.
I’ve been a fan of Rob’s music for a long time, so I already had visuals in my mind for certain songs to use. A song Rob hasn’t performed in a long time, but sort of his first single was called Lotta Good Men And it’s got this line in it, “I don’t want to die like Jack Kerouac.” I had ideas in my mind about different visuals and shots.
Clay
You’ve got that Jack Kerouac line in the trailer. Why did you think to use that as an introduction?
Steven
If you go back to look up a lot of stories about Rob, he’s known as the beatnik poet, the last of the beatnik cowboys, and Kerouac was the king of the beats. I grew up being a fan of The Grateful Dead and Bob Dylan and all of these people. They all cited On The Road and The Dharma Bums as these seminal pieces of literature.
In the film, Jorma Kaukonen’s wife, Vanessa, actually talks about that - how Rob’s words were powerful and reminder her of Jack Kerouac with a cowboy hat.
Clay
Was there anything during the making of this documentary that surfaced that maybe surprised you? Or something you kept seeing that you really didn’t expect to come up?
Steven
Well, for me, it was everyone had a story about Rob and something he did in his kindness to them. You know, J.T. Cure sitting at his place in Nashville looking at his Grammy Award while I’m interviewing him, he says, “Rob called me and included me in gigs when nobody else did.”
And then Chris Scruggs tells me Rob took him back out on the road and gave him a new lease on life, in a performance sense; Marty Stewart talking about how “Rob’s a folk hero.” That’s a direct quote from Marty Stewart. That kindness; treating people nice. I very much tried to thread that in, because that’s the same thing I experienced with Rob.
Clay
How much of you do you feel like there was… You were making a film about someone who you consider a friend, who you personally know. What in that film was you?
Steven
There’s a pretty big preamble from me in the open where I talk about meeting Rob. I wanted to tell a story about Rob and his career, but also let people know this other side. It’s not that Rob was ever viewed as not being kind to people, but sometimes we forget about that.
When I ran sound at a coffee shop that Rob would play in, I remember that the week before the first time I met Rob, I got yelled at by a bluegrass performer because they wanted four vocal mics, four instrument mics, and the stage was about as big as the studio we’re recording this in. There wasn’t a lot of room and there was feedback and they had done some song and was not happy and yelled at me.
Rob had sent posters ahead of time before he came to play. And it’s just one of those things that when someone sends posters ahead of time, press ahead of time, you get a little nervous. You think “This guy is good.”
I had heard the legend of him recording with Johnny Cash’s son, John Carter Cash. And, then, he comes in, really tall cowboy hat, and I was nervous. I just remember Rob telling me exactly the sound set up, boom, good to go! And I felt so good after that, after getting yelled at. That was a personal thing to me. I wanted to get across all the things Rob did for other people.
Clay
This kindness that people find memorable about you, where in your life did you learn to be kind? What do you think of when you consider how you treat people?
Rob
I was raised in a very good home. My parents taught me well. They were the best parents in the world. I wish everybody in the world felt about their parents the way I feel about mine. And, being raised in a church, you know, treat people nice.
Clay
What do you hope that people will walk away with after seeing the film?
Steven
A couple of things. I hope a younger person who might want to be an artist or a filmmaker sees this and it inspires them to produce something of their own. That’s always been a goal of mine. You know, you can make film! This is a 56-minute film that was made on a shoestring budget. You don’t need millions of dollars to produce a documentary film. You need to pay attention, a good microphone, camera, and lenses but, at the same time, it’s all in the planning and the editing.
Even more so, I want people to book Rob for more and more shows.
Clay
If people want to listen to your music, where can they find it?
Rob
Just type in my name on YouTube, or there’s a couple of albums on Bandcamp, and I’ll be adding more. Eventually, all the albums will be on Bandcamp - it’s just my laziness that they’re not all on there right now.
Clay
[To Steven] What album do you recommend people start with?
Steven
Cowboy Boot Heel, of course. I also really liked the next album Rob did after that, Lonesome Valley.
Rob
Okay, that’s the one I’ll put up next.
From The Cowboy’s Boot Heel will show at The Kentucky Theater May 6th at 7:15 pm. It will be followed by a performance by Rob and a Q&A panel hosted by WoodSongs’ Michael Johnathon.